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Just a thought for the newer guys.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 11-06-2009 @ 05:22:21 Reply | Edit

Hey everyone! I was bored and Ive been meaning to post this up here for sometime now and its slipped my mind everytime. No...this is not directly about turbos or superchargers.

I just wanted to share with you a basic principle concerning modifications and horsepower/torque gains. Alot of people look at the Flowmaster muffler (for example) and see that it advertises giving you ,say, 10 horsepower. This simply is not the case. You end up in reality with like 5 to 7 horsepower and thats at the engine. Maybe like 3 or 4 hitting the ground. I know that it sounds depressing and not worth while but thats where Im carrying this little info bit. Each and every modification you do multiplies the amount of HP/torque that you make. The more mods you do the bigger the net gain with the next modification and to top it all off once you get a handfull of mods you stand to gain a nice little chunk of "hidden" HP/torque that you can unlock by reprogramming your PCM to make it work more efficiently with your ride. Usually a 3800 series Fbody with full exhaust mods will be around 182 to 185 rearwheel horsepower. With full intake and full exhaust that number goes up further to around 190 to 193 rearwheel horsepower. (relatively a 8 rwhp netgain...) In my case I went a little further and installed 1.8 roller rockers on my ride which alot of people said brought it to around 205 to 210 rearwheel horsepower. If I had reprogrammed the PCM at that time Im willing to bet I could have pulled another 10 to 15 rearwheel HP that would have been "hidden". Do you see what Im talking about? Individually the modifications dont add that much in HP/torque numbers but when you start adding the mods in all together thats when you will start seeing some really nice gains. This applies to all vehicles. And just to cover my rear....those HP numbers were rough estimates. Some people will be slightly higher and some will be lower. I hope Ive been able to help you better understand modding!

Thanks to some insight from Blackcar628 you also will now have the information for what exactly you need to convert your V6 to a V8! Just because everyone loves to ask this question here is the list of parts that will be needed.

1. engine and transmission
2. pcm and wiring harness
3. driveshaft (if you have a two piece)
4. fuel pump
5. radiator
6. k-member including struts/tranny crossmember (best to just go ahead and get polyurethane tranny mount)
7. v8 car guage cluster
and finally
8. best to just go ahead and get the v8 car limited slip rear end with disk brakes

Goldenphoenix out!

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

[ Edited on 07/14/2006 @ 00:46:48 ]

Posted By: nolo325 On: 05-27-2005 @ 06:14:27 Reply | Top | Edit

you forgot sticker power
--
98 camaro Sport Gold Metallic , 3.8, free ram air, 15.6 @ 87mph,

FOR SALE
"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Corvette than in a Yugo."

Posted By: Jeremiah On: 05-27-2005 @ 09:33:59 Reply | Top | Edit

well said

I try to get that poiny across to my friends all the time and it doesnt seem to work..lol
--
2001 Firebird 3.8 5spd:
exhaust, lid, cat, LCA's+relo, 3.73's, Zexel posi, HP Tuners + Intense-Racing tune, complete MSD setup, HBHRacing fan switch, SPEC Stage 2

14.65@94.39 1/8th-9.43@75.12 2.06 60'--stock tune, no msd, bad clutch, without SUPER-DUPER-TOP-SECRET-MOD

Posted By: MInor723 On: 05-27-2005 @ 11:14:34 Reply | Top | Edit

That does make sense, Do you think i have any hidden power with my mods yet?

Is it best to wait until your done modding to get pcm reprogrammed, prolly more cost effecient, or maybe buy a programmer.

Thanks for the info, i learned something today.
--

1999 3.8, Hurst Short throw shifter, Borla Catback, Whisper Cold-Air Induction Lid, SLP Cold Air Induction Package, K&N Filter.

Posted By: Howi152 On: 05-27-2005 @ 11:31:25 Reply | Top | Edit

*Chants*Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...Sticky...*slowlyfades*

Thanks Kevin for the post.
--

2000 M5 3.8, AMS Oil, Custom AEM Short Ram intake, Custom Kevlar Clutch, B&M Short shifter, 8mm Taylor & NGK Iridum plugs 160 deg. thermostat, Powerstop C/D Rotor w/911 pads, Posi & Richmond 4.10s, TT2's w/ Nitto 555, Prokit Springs, BMR LCA, KYB AGX 8-ways, 3 inch piping, cutout, 3 chamber Flowmasters, HP Tuners Software, 5%in the back 35% on the sides, Clarion deck, Kenwood EQ, Infinity Kapa 6.5 up front Kicker 6.5 in the rear, Comp VR 12, Kicker 400.1 (sub) 300.4 (mids & highs), Optima battery.
http://torquejunkies.com
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/806867

Posted By: nolo325 On: 05-27-2005 @ 18:27:32 Reply | Top | Edit

sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky

sticky sticky sticky

"A good time to keep your mouth shut is when you're in deep water."

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 05-27-2005 @ 20:27:14 Reply | Top | Edit

No problem guys! I thought it would help some. Everytime we get a new batch of V6ers here it has to be explained again. I just hope it will help some people out.

If there are any questions just let me know.

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: nolo325 On: 05-28-2005 @ 01:14:33 Reply | Top | Edit

you know they would still ask right.
--
98 camaro Sport Gold Metallic , 3.8, free ram air, 15.6 @ 87mph,

FOR SALE
"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Corvette than in a Yugo."

Posted By: Darc_Eric On: 05-28-2005 @ 01:30:27 Reply | Top | Edit

So you have to actually go 'inside' the engine to install the rockers. How expensive is that? After that G20 loss and lack of more efficient mods; I may be getting a 2008 GTO afterall. No matter what you do for this car its expensive. $2500 for Turbo, $3600 for s/c; then you gotta pay someone $1000 to put it on, then stupid things start to happnen.

If that 2008 GTO looks anything like the motor trend pics; it may be bye bye Fbody.

I don't know. Thanks for the heads-up.
--
1998 Navy Blue Metallic Firebird, Y87, every option. AC Delco Iridium Spark Plugs;
MSD 8.5mm Wires. Whisper Motorsports Cold Air Intake. Magnaflow Exhaust;
(*=pending) New Trans-Am Suspension.*

Posted By: uhf357 On: 05-28-2005 @ 14:43:59 Reply | Top | Edit

well written and true.

--
Scott-Concord NH.
1998 Z28 M6. LS1
http://www.fbody.com/timeslips/member.cgi?id=820
Its 2005 and there's STILL no replacement for displacement!

Posted By: hurley_21_07 On: 06-05-2005 @ 17:41:00 Reply | Top | Edit

Hey golden, wanna be in the club?

(refer to sig)

Dan
--
|| 30th Anniversary Camaro 3800 A4 || Silver Sixxers! ||
MODS: SLP Cold Air Induction
Next Mod: MSD DIS-4 Complete Set Up

Posted By: 1BADDAM On: 06-17-2005 @ 02:18:58 Reply | Top | Edit

For "some" sixers, a paperclip and a crescent wrench can get you 30 RWHP

--
89 TA 3.8 LC2
Snake- the other white meat

Posted By: blackbird02 On: 07-01-2005 @ 15:22:02 Reply | Top | Edit

oh and people dont forget, its not the amount of horsepower your car has that counts, its how to get the most horsepower you have to the ground via like gears and drag tires, aint that right jeremiah.
--

Trevor Chappel- 2002 Pontiac Firebird 3.8 A4 Y87 W68 25,000 miles
Mods- Free Whisper Lid Mod, Free Ram Air Mod, K&N Filter, they make a differnce

Posted By: mcphuhmi On: 07-10-2005 @ 00:03:35 Reply | Top | Edit

hey, im new here, but i saw the comment that some sixers can get 30rwhp from a paper clip and a wrench....is this an expression, a myth, or some what true, id love to find out, i just bought a 3.4L v6 1995

Posted By: minimaddux On: 07-10-2005 @ 12:02:52 Reply | Top | Edit

haha....... might wana ask about tha sticker HP too..... im just messin with ya man. ive never hurd anything about it either...
--

98 T/A A4, 2.73 gears, pacesetter LT's, TSP catted Y, TSP Rumbler exhaust, SLP CAI, Lid, smooth bellow, 160 degree thermo
best 1/8 time.... 8.8 @ 82 2.034 60ft. (withought headers)

Posted By: 1BADDAM On: 07-10-2005 @ 12:54:50 Reply | Top | Edit

Sorry, LC2 (GN,TTA) motors.

A paperclip can be used as a jumper wire from postion F and A on the ALDL, by doing this you lock the torque convertor as soon as it goes into 2nd gear (thru 4th as well) this will drop .1-.2 sec. and pick up 1-2 mph.in the 1/4 alone. 5-10 rwhp

Crescent wrench, unbolts the exhaust before the cat, in essence creates a dump/cut-out. This is worth an easy 15-20 rwhp, and will go up with additional boost.

Hacksaw, die set, and a $2.50 turnbuckle from home depot, and you've made the factory wastegate adjustable. Now with hi octane fuel you can run up to about 21-22#'s of boost, which is the end of the curve for the stock turbo. Each additional pound of boost is 7+ rwhp. Do the math for either(14#'s stock GN/16.5#'s stock TTA)

Throw in a Thrasher race chip for $25 and for next to nothing you've added a ton of power.

With the addition of a K&N air filter and things done above I trapped 113.5 mph in the 1/4.

Granted I didn't go the cheap route, I bought a cut-out ($50), adj. wastegate,($60) none the less still the same.

So consider stock TTA's trapped 101-103 range, That what 100 hp.

--
89 TA 3.8 LC2
Snake- the other white meat

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-10-2005 @ 16:06:32 Reply | Top | Edit

um i aint a noob kevin

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-10-2005 @ 16:07:29 Reply | Top | Edit

hey kevin you get that pic i senet ya of me and the my fiance
--

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 07-11-2005 @ 06:31:11 Reply | Top | Edit

Hey Pawn! Yes I got the pic that you sent me of you and your fiance. Thanks!

I also know that you are no NooB!

I havent heard from you in a while though. Most people here at the V6 forum havent heard from me either. Oh well.

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-11-2005 @ 23:40:29 Reply | Top | Edit

i think ill be passin gyou going your way next year on deployment

yeah i been kinda busy wiht wedding planning

--

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 07-12-2005 @ 05:12:20 Reply | Top | Edit

I will be out of here by mid October bud.

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: Hahnsbird On: 07-15-2005 @ 20:11:14 Reply | Top | Edit

I thought they came w/ 200hp?
--
2000PewterFirebird w/ground effects,RamAirHood,Custom Interior
FlowmasterAmericanThunderExhaust,K&NAirChargerCold-AirIntake,180*HypertechThermostat,NGKIridiumPlugs&TaylorWires
HelixPowerTowerPlusThrottleBodySpacer,RKsportAirTemperatureModuleW/relocatedWiring,B&MShiftPlusKit.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 07-15-2005 @ 21:17:13 Reply | Top | Edit

About 170 to 175 rearwheel horsepower is approximately 200 at the engine.

For us automatics we have about a 20% loss of power through the drivetrain. Sticks have about about 10 to 15%.
--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: stevethepirate On: 07-19-2005 @ 00:16:31 Reply | Top | Edit

i was just wondering if someone could post sort of a generic mod list in chronological order with prices.
--
der no more pilot

Posted By: jessica2112 On: 07-19-2005 @ 15:30:31 Reply | Top | Edit

I agree, I have a supercharged v6, headers ff exaust and performance rear axle. She gets up and goes. It's worth it. Freaks out V8 guys.

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-21-2005 @ 21:56:11 Reply | Top | Edit

hey kevin i did tell you that i was getting married august 20?
--

Posted By: 97SilverRS On: 07-22-2005 @ 01:01:44 Reply | Top | Edit

hey kevin... how exactly do u go and reprogram your PCM...and what exactly is that... all this computers and crap now days i don't exactly understand... i understand everything about how an old carberator engine runs...its jus the one's w/ fuel injectoin and computers that get me all mixed up...(i understand how fuel injection works.. jus using the "newer fuel injection" enigines as a time line compared to the "old ones"
--
1997 Silver RS 3800 30th Edition, no mods but hopfully that will change in time .........near future...Magnaflow Catback.. SLP CAI ||

Silver 6ers!

Open it from either end!!

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 07-22-2005 @ 18:07:30 Reply | Top | Edit

Hey Pawn! No you didnt tell me that you were getting married on Aug 20th! Congrats bud!! Youre going to be making that married man money while you are deployed huh?

Nice.

97SilverRS....give me some time to get back from Iraq and I will tell you what it is that you want to know about programming your PCM. I still need at least another 3 months.

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-23-2005 @ 16:07:46 Reply | Top | Edit

i did i at least tell you i was engagneded? yup afriad ill get that married man money.
--

Posted By: pawn65 On: 07-23-2005 @ 16:09:46 Reply | Top | Edit

hey man i pray for ya while your over there bud
--

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 07-23-2005 @ 23:19:15 Reply | Top | Edit

Thanks bud!

--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 08-18-2005 @ 08:47:44 Reply | Top | Edit

I see that the number of views for this thread continue to climb. Im glad I was able to be of help to the 6ers at this board.

If you still have any questions for me I can be reached directly at spcksw01@yahoo.com or kevin.wade@us.army.mil . I cant wait to return to the US and finally bring this V6 project to an end.
--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: Jeremiah On: 08-18-2005 @ 11:50:24 Reply | Top | Edit

keep it up

My project shouldnt be too far behind yours, but I think I may have to set some other things a higher priority first

--
2005 GMC 1500HD 6.0L 3.73's

One of these days I will buy a 4th gen and NOT run the miles up on it

Like they say, 3rd time's a charm.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 08-19-2005 @ 06:13:49 Reply | Top | Edit

I spoke with your lady...turns out she doesnt want a diamond ring after all! She told me she wants you to buy here a rubber gasket and that would be a good enough gesture of your love for her! She said you should move on with getting your V6 project started so we can have real fun in the V6 forum!

yeah right!
--
If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

Posted By: 0B3517Y On: 08-19-2005 @ 06:53:56 Reply | Top | Edit

--
2000 Firebird 3.8 Navy Blue Metallic, Flowmaster 80 series dual exhaust, Modified pvc intake, K&N drop in filter, Viper 350HV, Magnaflow cat,
160* Hypertech thermostat, NGK tr55ix iridium plugs, Msd Superconductor wires, 3400 watts of stereo, Optima red top, *Now featuring 3.73's and posi W00T!!
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jzfn13

Posted By: gyngabreadman On: 09-20-2005 @ 23:34:07 Reply | Top | Edit

hey pheonix hope u get back from iraq in 1 piece cuz it would be a shame for these guys in the v6 spot to lose u man
--

stock to the bone

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 09-22-2005 @ 07:10:39 Reply | Top | Edit

Thanks Bro!

I appreciate the thought!

But for your information I have 28 days left here in Iraq. However Im not supposed to get released from Active Duty until around Nov. 5th.

I really cant wait to be able to post some numbers and video clips for you all to watch either!

But to be honest with you...I wont deny it. Im scared of my car. I have no driving experience with a car that can pushout as much HP/Torque as mine will. It wont take much to lose control of that power either.

--
My other siggy!

Posted By: Rg320camaro On: 09-22-2005 @ 20:10:00 Reply | Top | Edit

Go to a driving school once everything is said and done

--
Mainstream Topics
Cardomain

1998 3.8L M5, K&N, SLP CAI, Whisper Lid, Magnaflow 2.5" Cat-back, 180* Thermo, T-tops

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 09-23-2005 @ 05:25:03 Reply | Top | Edit

I guess I could....I'll consider it.

--
My other siggy!

Posted By: 0B3517Y On: 09-26-2005 @ 00:37:10 Reply | Top | Edit

I have more usefull info to add to this thread, This was taken from a member of another board, So dont give me credit for typing all of this up or making spelling errors. Just thought this would be useful.

sticky? i spent some time on this i think it answers alot of the basic stuff and give's good sorce's to read up on things

Basic stuff on how your motor works
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system.htm (timing)

First thing
Yes, you can boost your stock car! 6-7 Psi is usually "safe" and still get lots of power. Some people have been running 10 PSI daily on there motor.

Our motor is very strong and can take a lot. If set up and tuned. I will get into this later.

You might be asking "Where do I find parts?"
www.lmperformance.com
www.intense-racing.com
www.3800performance.com
www.ftpp.net/V6Main.htm
www.zzperformance.com
www.tbyrnemotorsports.com/v6catalog.html
www.texas-speed.com/V6FBODY.asp
http://www.thunderracing.com/catalo...n=vehicle&vid=5
www.ngk.com

Are the place's that carry a lot of stuff for our cars. The 3800 Series II you may have seen in some Front wheel drive cars, including the Super charged ones, Are for the most part the same short block. After that there are differences.

Don�t buy a gasket kit for a front wheel drive car. There intake ports are different then ours.

The heads use the same head gasket but the heads are not the same. Our fuel injectors are in our upper intake, FWD cars are in the heads.

Nothing swaps over from the cars, not even the supercharger, it will not fit!!

What Upgrades do I need to boost my car?"

Not as much as you might think. Linxs (pat) Member of the board has stock motor with a custom turbo kit on it and he has put down a best of 416 RWHP (rear wheel horse power) with an open Exhaust.Of course this took alot of tuning hours.

Since the 2 forms of forced induction for our motor are Supercharger and turbo chargers they take the place of needing a cold air intake...... or at least non of the intakes will work with them. So the only thing that's absolute necessary is spark plugs and PCV plug mod. You must get a plug that�s 1 or 2 heat range's colder (see http://www.ngk.com/charglossary.asp?kw=Heat+range for more info) this helps stop Pre-ignition.

Basic info about plugs
http://www.ngk.com/sparkplug411.asp
http://www.ngk.com/faqmain.asp?mfid=
http://www.ngk.com/glossaryImage.asp?imgID=54

Pre-ignition

Ignition of the air/fuel mixture prior to its timed ignition by a spark from the spark plug is referred to as "pre-ignition". This can be caused by a hot spot in the combustion chamber, improper timing, too hot a spark plug, low octane fuel, too lean an air/fuel mixture, or engine overeating.
http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?kw=Pre-ignition

Throttle body by-pass
http://home.comcast.net/~grayman99/TB-PCV.htm this explains why it is needed and 2 ways to do it...

Now everything else will let your stock motor breath more which means it�s making more power

If you car is a 1995-1999 your stock exhaust manifolds are crappy and don't flow well. Plus it's really hard to change the plugs. You can upgrade these with 2000+ years witch flow better and make plug changing a lot easier. Or buy headers
3 place's make headers
www.rksport.com
Pacesetters (found at many links above)
CIA
www.clearimageautomotive.com/Products/Exhaust/V6Headers.htm

Finally upgrade your exhaust.
Exhaust can be found at almost every link above. I could go on day's trying to explain each one, and find what one is better then other. But it really matters on how much money you have and what kind of sound your looking for..... But anything is better then stock.

Upgrade CAT converter.
Federal laws regulate this so be careful. You can get a high flow cat from almost any place. Most people seem to like the "Car sound" one. It�s cheap, and flows well.

You do not need to upgrade any internal motor parts. If you do it gets expensive really fast! Unless you�re trying to push the limits there is really no need.

Heads an cam can be replaced without removing the motor from the car

pistons and bottom end
many of the place's i listed above carry stronger parts you need to do this, also you must remove the motor and have all kinds of machine done to it. this is not cheap. know one yet ahs broken our crank shaft. do to raw power

Tuning:
Tuning is just getting going for these motors, there are 2 options.
www.hptuners.com (1997-up cars only)(1996 cars can put a 1997 PCM in there car plug and play)
And
Digital Horse Power
www.digitalhorsepower.com/home.htm

How much can my 3.4 or 3.8 handle?
The truth is to nobody actually knows, to my knowledge and many others on this board and other boards no one has broken a 3.4 or 3.8 because of raw power output.
Usually failure is do to pre-ignition, leaning out (to little fuel) or bad tuning.

Tuning now is getting easier and fuel upgrades are there.

Knock can be controlled with tuning, fuel, and just not getting stupid with the boost. Also P/P the heads can help prevent hot spots that also cause knock

Many people have been running 8-10 Psi for a while now and being smart about it is why there car is still in one piece.

Still 7 PSI seems to be the going rate for a everyday car and 10 psi at the track.

I don't want to go crazy but I would like a little more power from my FI car."
The cheapest things for this are
Changing out rocker arms for a little more lift.
P/p heads
P/p upper and lower intakes
Cam/valve-train

You can upgrade the cam with out removing the heads. Most people opp for this, the cam is like your lungs it controls how air flows in the motor.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

This will add power but to get max power you will need to p/p the heads to compliment the cam. Allowing the air to flow "faster" less restricted also the "port" makes more area so more air can flow. More air in/out = more power.

IMO it�s smarter to replace the cam and heads at the same time or you'll be doing work over again. Costing you more in the end. Also if you pick the right valve-train you can rev the motor higher with tuning.

Forced induction: Written by HAZ-Matt

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
http://www.powerdyne.com/tech.htm

This is my take on the matter. First I would like to say "Dammit Jim! I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!" (Well, not a doctor yet but you get the idea). However, I am a scientist and I feel that my description is accurate. I wrote this because I felt that the above guide got some of the major points correct, but misstated some of the other concepts (no offense meant to T-Punk). I also added descriptions of the different classes of compressors because I feel that is very important to understanding FI. If anyone has a grievance with my guide, let me know.

The HAZ-Matt Guide to
FORCED INDUCTION

SUPERCHARGING

The centrifugal supercharger is the only type of after market supercharger that has been fitted to a 4th Gen F-body at the time of this writing. As they are not mounted on top of the intake manifold (as any of the positive displacement type blowers are) they are easier to retrofit to vehicles that started their lives NA. It would not be economically feasible to adapt an M90 roots supercharger from a GTP to a 4th Gen F-body. If you are not satisfied by that statement, do a search or build the kit yourself.

By the way, a turbo (aka turbosupercharger, aka turbocharger) is a form of supercharger that is driven by exhaust gases. It is technically a subtype of superchargers because the defining feature of a supercharger is that it compresses air. The method of driving the compressor is irrelevant to the definition.

Roots Compressor

One of the earliest compressor designs. It essentially consists of a series of rotating lobes on a set of rotors within a housing. Early designs had fewer lobes that were cut straight making them noisy and relatively inefficient. Modern roots blowers have the lobes twisted axially and have tighter tolerances and better housing designs. Efficiency has been improved greatly. While the roots blower is simplistic, reliable, and can build boost off idle, it is still somewhat hampered by the inherent inefficiency of the compressor design and by the fact that the bulky nature of the unit precludes adaptation into cramped engine bays.

Lysholm (aka Screw) Compressor

The screw has all of the pros of a roots compressor with efficiency as good as or greater than that of a centrifugal design. Screw compressors are internally similar to a roots compressor except that each rotor has an extra lobes, and the lobes are not ground in the same way. The lobe design allows near interlocking of the lobes which increases thermal efficiency. They also have better high boost characteristics than a basic roots type compressor.

Centrifugal Compressors

These simplistically consist of a �fan� (vaned wheel) inside a scroll type housing. The compressor sucks air in and the vanes push the air to the outside edges of the scroll, causing pressurization. This design relies on �centrifugal force� to compress the air (the author is aware that technically centrifugal force is not a real force, but that�s how this compressor got its name). Because centrifugal compressors are not positive displacement, they do not have good compression characteristics at low speeds, and must reach high speeds for any significant compression to occur. At high RPMs, however, this compressor type is very efficient. Crank driven centrifugal superchargers generally are internally geared to operate the wheel in the 10K RPM range, whereas turbochargers may operate at over 100K RPMs.

TURBOCHARGING

Turbochargers are simply exhaust driven centrifugal superchargers. The compressor is directly linked to a turbine that is placed within the exhaust system. The compressor section of a turbo is generally smaller than the compressor of its cousin the crank driven centrifugal supercharger because it is going to spin at 10 times the RPM. The turbine looks like the compressor section of the turbo, except that the flow path is reversed and energy is taken out of the high kinetic energy exhaust gases in order that energy may be put into the intake charge (via compression). It is the turbine (in conjunction with the wastegate) that allows a turbo to function at many different RPMs at a single of engine speed. This allows greater tunability as compared to a crank driven supercharger.

Wastegates

As alluded to before, the wastegate is a system that can limit turbine RPM of a turbo. In a sense, a turbo is a positive feedback system. As the turbo creates more boost, it also creates more exhaust flow. If unchecked, the turbo would spin up to some ungodly RPM and something would eventually break. It is the wastegate�s job to limit flow through the turbine and thus control turbo RPM. In the simple case, the gate is controlled by manifold pressure. When the pressure is great enough (how great depends on the spring used in the wastegate) the gate opens and some of the exhaust gases bypass the turbine. Boost controllers generally manipulate the amount of manifold pressure the wastegate �sees� and fools it into thinking the manifold pressure is less than it actually is.

Blow off valves

The job of a blow off valve is to limit boost spikes and vent excess boost in the case that the wastegate is not doing its job. In a completely closed intake system, when the throttle plate closes during boost (as during a shift) a pressure wave would travel backwards to the compressor of the turbo (or supercharger theoretically) and cause a decelerative force on the compressor. Minimally, this would reduce compressor RPM and decrease performance after the shift, or in the worse case it could damage the turbo. A blow off valve, like a wastegate, samples manifold pressure. When the manifold pressure is less than the pressure in the intake piping, the valve opens and the pressure in the intake is reduced.

A bypass valve is like a blow off valve except that instead of venting the excess intake pressure to atmosphere, it pipes it back to before the compressor.

INTERCOOLERS

All this air compression will cause the temperature of intake charge to increase (i.e. can�t beat thermodynamics). Intercoolers are an attempt to bring the temperature of the air closer to ambient. Lower temperature air decreases the chance of detonation and also results in a higher flow rate through the engine. Flow rate is proportional to power output. Intercoolers received their name because some piston engine era warplanes utilized twin stage superchargers in order to maintain engine power at high altitudes. Even though many of those aircraft ran on 160 octane leaded fuel, heating of the intake air was a concern (see Rolls Royce Merlin engine design). A device, essentially a radiator, was placed between the first and second supercharger stages, and the �intercooler� was born. A similar device could also be placed after the second stage and was called the �aftercooler.� Although technically what we see on the automobiles today are more directly related to aftercoolers (some supercharger kits refer to them in this way) apparently intercooler sounds �cooler� (pardon the pun) and that is what description we commonly use for these little radiators.

The two main types of intercoolers are the air-to-air and air-to-water types; the main difference is which medium accepts heat from the intake charge.

Air-to-air intercoolers exchange heat between the intake charge and the ambient air. Efficiency is commonly in the neighborhood of 80%. Air-to-air intercoolers must be placed in a location with sufficient airflow or they will not be able to effectively exchange heat. Two subclasses of air-to-air intercoolers are the cheaper tube and fin design, and the more robust and efficient bar and plate design. The main advantage of an air-to-air intercooler is simplicity of design.

Air-to-water intercoolers may operate at efficiencies greater than 100% if the water is at a temperature below ambient. These systems do not need to be placed in the path of airflow, so there is some freedom in choosing a location for it within the vehicle. The actual intercooler portion of the system is generally smaller than a comparable air-to-air intercooler. Unfortunately, air-to-water systems are more complex in that they need a coolant reservoir and some method to extract heat from the coolant.

TURBO VS SUPERCHARGER

In simplistic terms, the engine functions as an air pump. The more air and fuel that is pumped through, the more power you can make. In order to pump the air, pressure on the intake side must be higher relative to pressure going out the exhaust. In a naturally aspirated engine, valve timing events are used to create a pressure. Since you are reading this guide, you are probably not interested in naturally aspirated engines, so we can leave it at that. That said, we can all agree that it makes no sense to build a naturally aspirated performance engine. From a performance standpoint, it would generally make sense to use some means to pressurize the intake, while using some means to decrease the pressure in the exhaust path. The second part is easy; almost everyone and their brother has some type of exhaust work. The first job is a little trickier. Fortunately we have superchargers (and turbos) to save the day.

A crank driven supercharger will most definitely increase the pressure on the intake side of the engine. Since it is limited to the intake track, it will not adversely affect the pressure in the exhaust. The pressure on the intake side should always be greater than the pressure in the exhaust. However, power doesn�t come free, and you must use some of that newfound torque to spin the supercharger. How much that takes is calculable, but is purely academic because significant power is netted. In the case of positive displacement superchargers, boost can be had at very low RPMs, and in the case of the centrifugal and screw supercharger, good efficiency can be had. Other reasons to choose a supercharger are that the retrofit to an NA car should be smoother because there are no changes to be made to the exhaust path. The power curve is predictable because boost is largely dependent on RPM of the motor and not some less tangible factor such as engine load.

Now why would anyone want a turbo? Turbo systems are more complex because they require revision to the intake and exhaust sides of the motor. From the air pump standpoint, at first glance they seem to be inferior to a supercharger as you are placing a restriction in the exhaust flow path (i.e. the turbine). And given what we know of centrifugal compressor efficiency at low RPMs, there may be a significant portion of the rev range before the turbo will reach threshold and begin to create boost (this is what �lag� is). However the relative independence from engine RPM is the turbo�s greatest advantage over any other supercharger type. Boost can be reset with ease, and therefore tunability is also greatly increased as compared to a crank driven unit. While the adiabatic efficiency of the compressor may not be as great as that of a screw type supercharger, the drive mechanism is much more efficient, as a turbo relies on utilization of largely wasted kinetic energy in the exhaust gases. All of this combines to form a versatile, tunable unit that has the potential to make more power than a crank driven supercharger.

So a turbo must be superior to a crank driven supercharger, right? If that was the case the crank driven supercharger would have died out long ago. For all out power the turbo reigns supreme, but life unfortunately is full of compromises. Packaging is a huge concern during a retrofit of forced induction onto an NA motor, and in that instance the crank driven supercharger has the turbo beat handily. The user must decide on his or her priorities and decide from there.

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2000 Firebird 3.8 Navy Blue Metallic, Flowmaster 80 series dual exhaust, Modified pvc intake, K&N drop in filter, Viper 350HV, Magnaflow cat, TSP Tune
Cutout, 160* thermostat, NGK tr55ix iridium plugs, Msd Superconductor wires, 3400 watts of stereo, Optima red top, *Now featuring 3.73's and posi W00T!!
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jzfn13

Posted By: av6xperience On: 06-10-2006 @ 19:24:02 Reply | Top | Edit

both goldenphoenix and OB35 are correvt in their statements. my first mod was a cone air filter and i hardly noticed a difference in power, i could hear it though when i tapped on the gas, then i got the plug wires and still could barely notice a performance increase although the engine was a little bit louder. next came my flowmaster and after this i could notice a difference, but not a big one. after this i put on the intake tube and mounted the filter by the front left tire, its hanging. now i definately notice a difference, especially when im goin 35+ cause all that damn air is smashing into my filter intake. the exhaust does sound a little import-ish above 4000 rpm which is gay cause i believe in americans and our cars.
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96 v6 : cool intake, plug wires, tornado fuel saver, flowmaster 80 series

Posted By: av6xperience On: 06-10-2006 @ 19:32:20 Reply | Top | Edit

oh damn i didnt look at when the last post was. it was back in '05. guess this one's over lol
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96 v6 : cool intake, plug wires, tornado fuel saver, flowmaster 80 series

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 06-13-2006 @ 18:35:35 Reply | Top | Edit

Its quite alright. Its a sticky and it stays up here at the top for everyone to read and add on to as they see fit!

And Im still here if you have any ???s

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My other siggy!

Posted By: RUB On: 06-17-2006 @ 04:52:36 Reply | Top | Edit

i had a ? iam running an efen 13.5 with my supercharger for some reason i think i should be faster.. i have a 1997 fb 3800 just pullys hot plugs cold air in take.... iam hiting it @112mp.... do i need more mods

My Caps Lock Button Is Broken

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 06-21-2006 @ 00:16:33 Reply | Top | Edit

There is always room for more mods!

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If your whining isn't coming from underneath the hood I dont want to hear it.

[ Edited on 06/21/2006 @ 00:17:04 ]

Posted By: pawn65 On: 06-23-2006 @ 19:20:09 Reply | Top | Edit

whats a noobie?
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Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 06-24-2006 @ 22:04:59 Reply | Top | Edit

A newbie is someone who is brand new to the Fbody scene. They typically like to ask an array of questions that have been asked and answered 1,000s of times before their arrival. They typically bug the veterans even though they still get their answers.

They have slowly worn down some veterans to the point that they no longer come to the site.

This causes some of the other veterans to miss their comrads and actually bring on an air of sadness....sometimes.

I dont consider someone who is coming over from another Fbody website to be a newbie as long as they have some good information to share with the rest of us....even if they are brand new to this particular Fbody website.

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My other siggy!

Posted By: shadowknight93 On: 08-19-2006 @ 16:03:47 Reply | Top | Edit

Ok i understand that when changing a V6 over to a V8 youll need to get a new transmision of course but say im converting to a manual transmission also which transmission do you guys recommend?

Posted By: Rg320camaro On: 09-12-2006 @ 20:33:07 Reply | Top | Edit

Well, if your going from a v6 to a v8, get a T56. If your just going from one v6 to another, get a T5. An auto tranny for both the v6 and v8 is a 4L60E
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Trent
1998 3.8L M5, SLP CAI, whisper lid, K&N, 180* thermo, MF cat-back, MF cat, cutout, stg 2 clutch, HBHracing fan switch

. . . and it was stuck on there the second i pushed it down - Brent

Posted By: rs2002 On: 04-24-2007 @ 04:16:23 Reply | Top | Edit

i noticed there are no posts on this in awhile but if anyone still looks at this I was curious on what things should i do before i put a supercharger on my car its a 2002 RS also what are some good companies to go through for parts? also What company is good for the supercharger, vortech or someone else?

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 05-07-2007 @ 23:51:50 Reply | Top | Edit

Well if you know that your big poweradder is going to be a supercharger then dont even bother with intake. I would just work on the exhaust -headers, catalytic converter removal or more free flowing cat, performance muffler and not nessessarily Flowmaster....maybe some tips...you could also consider slightly larger exhaust pipes as well just make sure they have mandrel bends- another area that might interest you would be gears, tires and limited slip differential if you dont have it already. If you want to go bigtime and dig into the engine then there are heads, cams and rockers that will also help to greatly improve your power on top of the supercharger. What interests you?
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My other siggy!

Posted By: MInor723 On: 05-08-2007 @ 00:13:44 Reply | Top | Edit

That seems interesting, I have all the supporting things you mention for the supercharger. If I decided to go along the supercharger route which would you recommend?

Also, will that make our car's less reliable?

It seems like everything I do makes my car worse off.

1. The BTS suspension kit (lowering springs / shocks) Make my ride really rough.

2. The BMR Bar under the middle of my car scrapes the ground now if i pull over the smallest of ramps. if i install the stock one it hits my Exhaust pipe.

3. It seems we always have problems with our lights. If they are not blowing out they are getting water in them.

Any ideas?
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1999 3.8, Hurst Short throw shifter, Borla Catback, Whisper Cold-Air Induction Lid, SLP Cold Air Induction Package, K&N Filter, 160* thermo, Magnaflow Hi-Flow Cat, Harlan's Fan switch, Stage 3 Clutch, Aluminum driveshaft, BMR Tunnel Brace, BMR Tubular lower control arms, Bilstein BTS Suspension kit, Energy Suspension Urethane Sway Bar Endlinks.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 05-08-2007 @ 11:47:24 Reply | Top | Edit

If it were me I think I would just go with a Vortech Supercharger...however I didnt go with the supercharger I went turbo instead.

Yes it will add some wear and tear to your engine. It wont be horrible but your engine wont last as long as it would have had it stayed naturally aspirated. The deal with superchargers is that from the second you put your foot on the gas you will be making some type of boost which increases wear and tear. With the turbo you dont get boost until you want it and excessive wear and tear begins then...not when you are just casually driving down the street. Dont get me wrong either...when I say excessive it makes it sound horrible but its really not that bad. For example if an engine would have gone 100,000 miles naturally aspirated before needing a rebuild it might go only 80,000 miles with a supercharger before needing a rebuild. While that may seem like a significant amount of mileage its really not that bad. Most of todays engines will go ALOT further than 100,000 miles in the first place. I would say that a brand new engine would begin to need a rebuild at around 120,000 miles with a supercharger if its been driven like a bat out of hell but otherwise well maintained and of course ALOT sooner if it hasnt been well maintained.
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My other siggy!

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 08-03-2007 @ 11:41:37 Reply | Top | Edit

Woo Hoo! The creator of this thread (myself) was lucky enough to get to be the 6,000 viewer of the thread!

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Why in the world would I ever want to downgrade to a V8?

Posted By: tdarty On: 09-16-2007 @ 02:52:40 Reply | Top | Edit

If the V6 and V8 both use the 4L60E auto transmissions would you still have to swap them out? Any differences? This is not something i'm planning right away just curious for down the road. Way down the road unfortunately!

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 09-16-2007 @ 11:11:03 Reply | Top | Edit

Yes, the bellhousing that connects it to the motors are different.
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Why in the world would I ever want to downgrade to a V8?

Posted By: 86camaroRS On: 09-26-2007 @ 06:53:00 Reply | Top | Edit

how many pounds can my 2.8 take? its got 45k on it.

i was looking to do a v8 eventualy but if i can

turbo i will leave the stock block in.

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 09-26-2007 @ 14:30:14 Reply | Top | Edit

Im not sure about how many pounds of boost they can take but I know that the Iron Duke, a built 2.8 liter engine, like yours made over 500 horsepower.
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Why in the world would I ever want to downgrade to a V8?

Posted By: 86camaroRS On: 09-26-2007 @ 14:33:07 Reply | Top | Edit

well im in high school still and i can get a turbo

for cheap im just looking at the amount of lbs can i

handle

Posted By: maddhatter On: 09-28-2007 @ 08:24:29 Reply | Top | Edit

Hey whats up, i just bought a 99 Camaro with the 3.8L, it has 120,ooo miles on it. I was wondering if you guys think it is even worth putting some mods on or if i should just put a new one in it.(it still runs like a champ but i dont know for how much longer)

Posted By: goldenphoenix On: 10-24-2007 @ 17:54:48 Reply | Top | Edit

MY thread!